The Kawai Digital & Acoustic Piano Users Forum

Unofficial digital/acoustic piano forum for users of Kawai Musical Instrument products. We are not affiliated with Kawai Musical Instruments!


    MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Share
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:19 pm

    I have been using the default sounds of the MP11 and have not messed with PTQ since I got the MP11.  Another user over at Piano World is requesting a curve and I'm sorry (or Happy!) to say that I do not have a curve for PTQ.  If there is any other activity over at Piano World in this regards I will update it here too.
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Own touch curve editor for the MP-11

    Post by Raytracer on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:57 am

    HwyStar wrote:I have been using the default sounds of the MP11 and have not messed with PTQ since I got the MP11.  Another user over at Piano World is requesting a curve and I'm sorry (or Happy!) to say that I do not have a curve for PTQ.  If there is any other activity over at Piano World in this regards I will update it here too.

    Has anyone discovered / considered or come up with a dedicated velocity curve editor that directly interfaces with the instrument? Something like what's available for the VPC-1.
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:24 am

    I don't think Kawai or anyone else has created a velocity curve editor for the MP11 like the VPC1 has had been.  I have never messed with the internal User Velocity curve editor of the MP11.  In Pianoteq I find it hit or miss trying to set the V-Curve to make the software and keyboard come alive like they should be.  I posted up on PTQ for more user velocity curves and got no where.

    I don't think that KJ (Kawai James) would be willing to give us the programmer information that would allow us to hack into the OS of the MP11 to tweak things ourselves.  Warranties be damned!  My dealings with KJ have never been that fruitful for me.  I don't think they would ever share any hackable information with the public.  It could just create a world of hurt for them if we started messing around with the ROM of the board.  "What do you mean that you can't support me and my $2,800 dollar brick?"  Basketball

    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:11 pm

    If the user touch curves are saved when you create a full backup of all settings, then there is a slight chance to identify and maybe manipulate them. That would be my first step. I'm gonna give it a shot these days. I'm really really surprised that there is so little talk about this and other issues about the MP-11 altogether. I would have suspected a lot more movement and setup swapping and stuff from the user communities. But there is virtually nothing going on.


    Last edited by Raytracer on Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    1st evaluations for a MP-11 velocity curve editor

    Post by Raytracer on Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:07 am

    Hi - I attempted a blunt approach:

    I generated a touch curve (USER1) and saved a backup of all settings to USB. (File size doesn't seem to vary btw.) After that I generated a second touch curve and replaced the USER1 curve and saved that backup also.

    Then I compared these 2 files and identified the differences. At that memory location I replaced the values with a constant value (e.g. 10) thus defining a linear curve, something like TOUCH OFF but at a lowered level.

    After restoring this manipulated file to the MP-11 the USER1 touch curve reacted exactly as expected. No accentuation no matter how light or heavy I hit the keys. A flat velocity curve. So far so good.

    As proof of concept I might try a reversed curve, a decreasing slope. So hitting a key lightly would generate loud tone and vice versa.
    Maybe it would be possible to use the VPC-1 Velocity Curve Editor to generate curves and the incorporate them in the backup file of the MP-11.

    I don't think Kawai will support me on this though. This could render the VPC-1 obsolete ;-)
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:33 pm

    Excellent workmanship Ray!  Performed just like a seasoned programmer would do.  You are totally on the right track and it makes total sense to me what you have done.

    In regards to PTQ and the values it works with, is it acting in a range of 1 to 10 or 0 to 127?

    If we knew the total file layout then we could simply create a structure (with structure arrays in it if required) and wham - done!  Read/Write and call it a day.

    The VPC1 has it's different key length compared to the MP11.  I thought long and hard about the VPC1; but as you may have read, I have really sensitive hands and it was the MP11 for the win.

    It would damage the VPC1's rep that is for sure.  Good work!  Tip back a beer!  pirat

    PS: nice speakers!
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:16 am

    0 - 127 (00 - 7F in hexadecimal) are actually the values I found in the velocity curve (VC) section of the backup file. Funny that the MP-11 came up with a perfect ramp up for my juvenile playing Wink This could mean that the MP-11 is not inferior to PianoTeq and possibly the VPC-1 VC-wise. This project could actually turn out to be worthwhile in the end. I'm staying on the ball.


    And thanks for the comment on the speakers Smile

    Yes, I love my Genelecs even though I haven't found the perfect position for the sub yet.

    Cheers,
    Ray
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:49 am

    Dealing with the interface of having a VC window, like PTQ, would be some work to implement.  My current tools (Clarion, Purebasic) don't have an object in them that would support that kind of window/object.  I'm afraid I couldn't help out with the interface.  Honestly, right now with my current job I just don't have the time to spend on another program.  I'm tapped right now!

    With your sub:  Are you having any issues with the walls/corners that are causing the sub to sound unnatural?  I hooked my HS8 sub up while using the HS8 speakers and it sounded terrible.  I unplugged the sub.  It sounded better without it.  Not sure if it was the room acoustics or the dynamic range that the MP11 is producing at great low frequencies that the sub cannot handle.
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:10 am

    The sub is near but not directly in a corner. I have followed Genelecs recommendations and ran their audio test files. There are two frequency ranges where the sub starts to boom (and literally tear up my apartment in the process) Wink Luckily this doesn't happen when only playing the piano sounds. But a deep pad or strings can take your breath away ...
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:45 pm

    I didn't know that Genelec provided audio reference files to use in helping you optimize placement and levels of the sub.  Very interesting.

    Here is the VC that I am using with my MP11 and PTQ:
    Velocity = [0, 9, 19, 31, 44, 60, 77, 95, 112, 127; 0, 13, 30, 48, 65, 82, 95, 108, 117, 127]

    I have a very light touch. I hadn't noticed until now that there are two sets of numbers in my VC copy and paste. I'm not sure what that is about.
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:46 am

    Have you had a look at the VC editor for VPC-1? Is it stand-alone? Can it save files? I would try to avoid the hassle of programming another application for the same purpose. (I'm not good at reinventing things). If that editor saves the created curves to a file, I'd try to analyze that. Maybe just extract the parameters from there and mingle it with a backup file from the MP-11.

    Voilà.


    BTW you can find Genelec Audio Test Files here: genelec.com/audio-test-signals. They work with a cross-over frequency of 85Hz.

    Best
    Ray
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:41 am

    HwyStar wrote:Here is the VC that I am using with my MP11 and PTQ:
    Velocity = [0, 9, 19, 31, 44, 60, 77, 95, 112, 127; 0, 13, 30, 48, 65, 82, 95, 108, 117, 127]

    I have a very light touch. I hadn't noticed until now that there are two sets of numbers in my VC copy and paste. I'm not sure what that is about.

    I assume those are x-y coordinates. A discrete set of points that form an interpolation of a curve:

    1. Point (0,0)
    2. Point (9,13)
    .
    .
    10. Point (127,127)

    Meaning that loudness and velocity are divided into 128 discrete steps.

    Seems plausible.
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:35 pm

    Yup! You must be right. i remember the good old algebra days now. X and Y. In the past when I pasted those values I saw only one section, not two. Thx!
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:56 pm

    HwyStar wrote:Here is the VC that I am using with my MP11 and PTQ:
    Velocity = [0, 9, 19, 31, 44, 60, 77, 95, 112, 127; 0, 13, 30, 48, 65, 82, 95, 108, 117, 127]

    So if our assumptions are correct your VC should look something like this:

    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:50 am

    That's dead on. Smile

    I'll be gone this weekend to Seattle and won't have connectivity. Have a great weekend!
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:51 pm

    Hi HwyStar - Hope you had a great time in Seattle!

    I'm a little tied-up at the moment but just wanted to signal that I haven't given up. I'm in discussion with some IT friends of mine to find the right toolset for this. I'll keep you posted here :-)

    Enjoy your instrument and talk soon again,
    Ray

    Jrcrusa

    Posts : 3
    Join date : 2017-02-15

    Progress or info on Touch Curve editor for MP11

    Post by Jrcrusa on Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:10 pm


    Has there been any progress or new info since June 16, 2016?
    The MP11 would be my choice if it had the type of editor of the VPC1.
    I don' have much hope of Kawai doing it or them putting the GF action in the VPC1.

    Raytracer, thanks for your ideas and work so far.

    Thanks much for any info or comments.
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:45 pm

    Sadly, I haven't really had the ressources to pick this up again as much as I'd love to boost the MP-11's position compared to the VPC-1 since it has the superior keyboard. I plan to reach out to some friends of mine to see how this could be tackled efficiently. I might just do a small hack in Excel. That should be fairly easy to do.

    Ever try the built-in velcurve detection functionality? It's suppose to be fairly good in coming up with a good approximation of your playing.

    Jrcrusa

    Posts : 3
    Join date : 2017-02-15

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Jrcrusa on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:49 pm

    Raytracer, Thanks for answering so quickly. I think your approach is right on. Maybe there are others in this group who can help you. If you think this is possible let me know. I wrote t o Kawai as well but I haven't received a response. I would have thought that they would sell an upgrade to the mp11 for those who would want to buy an editor like the one they include with the vpc1.

    Again if you think I could help you or if could get others to help let me know (jrcrusa at aol dot com)

    Jrcrusa

    Posts : 3
    Join date : 2017-02-15

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Jrcrusa on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:54 pm

    Raytracer,

    Here is the note I sent to Kawai:

    February 12, 2017
    I like the GF action of the MP11 however i would like the flexibility to have the option of using other vst like Ivory II or VI Labs. But without a velocity touch curve editor for the MP11 (like with the VPC1) I am limited. I would gladly pay more for that as an option for the MP11. Maybe you could have a third party develop it from the VPC1 editor?

    I'm sure many others have communicated this to you as it is a common thread in user forums. Maybe there is a difficulty we don't understand and you could explain. It seems if youalready have this for the VPC1 that you could make more money by offering it as an upgrade(that we could elect to pay more for) for the MP11. People would still buy the VPC1 as it is less expensive.

    Thank you.
    I await your response.
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:40 am

    Thanks for sending the email Jrcrusa! I'll be interested in the outcome. You may want to PM Kawai James of Piano World too. He may know the status in the background or can point you to a "real body"
    avatar
    Raytracer

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2016-06-16
    Age : 54
    Location : Germany

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Raytracer on Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:42 am

    Hi everyone,

    Sadly there has not been much progress on this project. I've had a couple of discussions with some IT guys and believe to have found a promising platform for this - Python. I'm going to setup a developing environment on my workstation these days and pull a copy of Kawai's velocity curve editor for reference of interface and workstream. More I can't promise right now. Keep you posted.

    Cheers.
    Ralf
    avatar
    HwyStar
    Admin

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2016-02-29
    Age : 57
    Location : Reno Nevada

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by HwyStar on Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:21 am

    Thanks for even attempting this Ralf! Make it a fun project.

    If it becomes to much work then I wouldn't bother. Seems like Projects of this nature go along great until you get to the very end and then a road block appears. Unknown development can be so frustrating. Good luck!

    Best,
    Robert

    PS: you may want to create a thread on PW asking any of the hundreds of users there if any have Python experience and if they would like to contribute/support you on the project. Bug James and Kawai too. If Kawai is not coming out with an MP12 anytime soon; that would probable have a VPC touch editor, then at least Kawai could create an editor for the MP11. I would be willing to help QC the project for you but I can't. I have had to stop playing piano completely. I am planning on having surgery done on both my hands due to arthritis. I look forward to the day when I can play again. I miss it.

    Sponsored content

    Re: MP11 and velocity curve for Pianoteq

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:36 pm